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	<title>Comments on: Making the Logical Progression To Open Theism</title>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: sally apokedak</title>
		<link>http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/2008/05/making-the-logical-progression-to-open-theism/#comment-145</link>
		<dc:creator>sally apokedak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks, AJM, for taking the time to comment and encourage me. 

I should just make clear that Martin Emmrich is my all-time favorite in the preaching department. I love the way he interacts with the passage he's preaching on and the way he delivers his thoughts. 

One of the things I love about him is that he comes to the passage with an open heart and a fresh approach. Sometimes he concludes things that I disagree with. Then I have to decide whether he's at fault for not taking into account other passages, or whether I'm in error because my presuppositions need tweaking. 

And whatever I decide, the thought and struggle with scripture works out to be a blessing for me. 

I should also make clear that I love the church I'm in now and I don't think the pastor and elders are ecumenically and theologically lazy. I am often bothered by their ecumenical bent but I don't suppose they have it because they are lazy. I believe they have it because they are trying to live out the love of Christ in a foreign land. I believe they have come to their level of ecumenical involvement by way of prayer and study and years of growing toward maturity in the knowledge of God. 

I happen to disagree with them to some extent, but I don't know that I'm right and they're wrong. When I am more mature, I may agree with them more. 

I do not mean to say that they are perfect and I should bow to them and follow blindly along. But I've lived with my foolish self long enough to know that I'm often wrong and sometimes, if I just wait and pray, God will either fix me or fix the other guy--usually a little of both--and I don't need to fret at all along the way.

I have no doubt that my pastors are Christians, called and equipped by God to do the task he's given them. That takes a load of worry off me. I don't have to try to do their job for them, because he's equipped them, he's perfecting them, he loves them, and he'll take care of them. 

Yes, they are my brothers and I am called to rebuke them and restore them if they need it. If they ever start teaching heresy or living sinfully, I will rebuke them.  

I'm great at rebuking people.  Just ask my kids. :mad: 

 :laugh: 

Oftentimes, though, I see in church people a desire to rebuke as heresy a difference in worship preference or a difference that arises from extra-biblical tradition, not from scriptural mandate. Or I see personal offense taken and then the offended comes to believe the offender must not be a Christian. S/he begins to examine everything and comes up with a long list of doctrinal differences that proves the offender is not a Christian and the offended leaves the church, shaking the dust. 

 :doh:  

This loving of the neighbor business is so hard to do, isn't it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, AJM, for taking the time to comment and encourage me. </p>
<p>I should just make clear that Martin Emmrich is my all-time favorite in the preaching department. I love the way he interacts with the passage he&#8217;s preaching on and the way he delivers his thoughts. </p>
<p>One of the things I love about him is that he comes to the passage with an open heart and a fresh approach. Sometimes he concludes things that I disagree with. Then I have to decide whether he&#8217;s at fault for not taking into account other passages, or whether I&#8217;m in error because my presuppositions need tweaking. </p>
<p>And whatever I decide, the thought and struggle with scripture works out to be a blessing for me. </p>
<p>I should also make clear that I love the church I&#8217;m in now and I don&#8217;t think the pastor and elders are ecumenically and theologically lazy. I am often bothered by their ecumenical bent but I don&#8217;t suppose they have it because they are lazy. I believe they have it because they are trying to live out the love of Christ in a foreign land. I believe they have come to their level of ecumenical involvement by way of prayer and study and years of growing toward maturity in the knowledge of God. </p>
<p>I happen to disagree with them to some extent, but I don&#8217;t know that I&#8217;m right and they&#8217;re wrong. When I am more mature, I may agree with them more. </p>
<p>I do not mean to say that they are perfect and I should bow to them and follow blindly along. But I&#8217;ve lived with my foolish self long enough to know that I&#8217;m often wrong and sometimes, if I just wait and pray, God will either fix me or fix the other guy&#8211;usually a little of both&#8211;and I don&#8217;t need to fret at all along the way.</p>
<p>I have no doubt that my pastors are Christians, called and equipped by God to do the task he&#8217;s given them. That takes a load of worry off me. I don&#8217;t have to try to do their job for them, because he&#8217;s equipped them, he&#8217;s perfecting them, he loves them, and he&#8217;ll take care of them. </p>
<p>Yes, they are my brothers and I am called to rebuke them and restore them if they need it. If they ever start teaching heresy or living sinfully, I will rebuke them.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m great at rebuking people.  Just ask my kids. <img src='http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/wp-includes/images/smilies/mad.gif' alt=':mad:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p> <img src='http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/wp-includes/images/smilies/biglaugh.gif' alt=':laugh:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Oftentimes, though, I see in church people a desire to rebuke as heresy a difference in worship preference or a difference that arises from extra-biblical tradition, not from scriptural mandate. Or I see personal offense taken and then the offended comes to believe the offender must not be a Christian. S/he begins to examine everything and comes up with a long list of doctrinal differences that proves the offender is not a Christian and the offended leaves the church, shaking the dust. </p>
<p> <img src='http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/wp-includes/images/smilies/doh.gif' alt=':doh:' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>This loving of the neighbor business is so hard to do, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: AJM</title>
		<link>http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/2008/05/making-the-logical-progression-to-open-theism/#comment-142</link>
		<dc:creator>AJM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/?p=45#comment-142</guid>
		<description>Hello Sally,

I just happened across your blog this morning while doing another search, and I wanted to encourage you.  I have been a part of both the OPC and the PCA, and would agree with your observations, which is also one reason that I am currently ministering in the PCA.  The confessions are fine theological statements, and certainly the leadership of a church should know and understand them, but it is true that the real power in a minister's counsel, preaching, and general life will only ever come from the Word of God.  I think that a good understanding of the confessions should inform and add to the richness of a minister's sermon preparation, especially on "metaphysical" issues such as justification, sanctification, adoption, etc., but it should rarely (if ever) make its way into a sermon in an explicit manner.  This is one reason that preaching in the OPC is often so dead, in my opinion, because many of her ministers know their confessions, their Van Til, their Rushdooney, and whoever else far, far better than they know the details of God's fingerprint in the Scriptures.

However, I also agree with your comments on the problems of ecumenical and theological laziness as a particular sin of the PCA!  I agree with you that it is good to pick one's battles, and then to remain there working for the glory of Christ in his Church in whatever capacity God has so placed you, and I pray that you will be able, by prayer and good conversation with your congregation, to influence your leadership for the better.

As far as Martin, I hope that he was just involved in a ministerial gaff - it happens when one is preaching from time to time, but making a mistake such as that is indeed pretty glaring.  I know him just a little, and I know that he is a good minister with good intentions, and that he does not like mindless traditionalism in the OPC either, I just hope that it has not caused him to over-react to the point of making unwise (and untrue!) theological statements.  

I preached for their congregation on the 21st of September from the "little apocalypse" of Isaiah 24:1-13.  Maybe you can listen to it when it comes online, and tell me how I measure up!  Seriously, if you listen to that site regularly, I'd enjoy any feedback that you may have to give.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Sally,</p>
<p>I just happened across your blog this morning while doing another search, and I wanted to encourage you.  I have been a part of both the OPC and the PCA, and would agree with your observations, which is also one reason that I am currently ministering in the PCA.  The confessions are fine theological statements, and certainly the leadership of a church should know and understand them, but it is true that the real power in a minister&#8217;s counsel, preaching, and general life will only ever come from the Word of God.  I think that a good understanding of the confessions should inform and add to the richness of a minister&#8217;s sermon preparation, especially on &#8220;metaphysical&#8221; issues such as justification, sanctification, adoption, etc., but it should rarely (if ever) make its way into a sermon in an explicit manner.  This is one reason that preaching in the OPC is often so dead, in my opinion, because many of her ministers know their confessions, their Van Til, their Rushdooney, and whoever else far, far better than they know the details of God&#8217;s fingerprint in the Scriptures.</p>
<p>However, I also agree with your comments on the problems of ecumenical and theological laziness as a particular sin of the PCA!  I agree with you that it is good to pick one&#8217;s battles, and then to remain there working for the glory of Christ in his Church in whatever capacity God has so placed you, and I pray that you will be able, by prayer and good conversation with your congregation, to influence your leadership for the better.</p>
<p>As far as Martin, I hope that he was just involved in a ministerial gaff - it happens when one is preaching from time to time, but making a mistake such as that is indeed pretty glaring.  I know him just a little, and I know that he is a good minister with good intentions, and that he does not like mindless traditionalism in the OPC either, I just hope that it has not caused him to over-react to the point of making unwise (and untrue!) theological statements.  </p>
<p>I preached for their congregation on the 21st of September from the &#8220;little apocalypse&#8221; of Isaiah 24:1-13.  Maybe you can listen to it when it comes online, and tell me how I measure up!  Seriously, if you listen to that site regularly, I&#8217;d enjoy any feedback that you may have to give.</p>
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		<title>By: sally apokedak</title>
		<link>http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/2008/05/making-the-logical-progression-to-open-theism/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>sally apokedak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 03:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/?p=45#comment-41</guid>
		<description>Well, thanks, Bob. I am always happy to have people praying for me. I must tell you, though, I'm pretty well convinced that God does know the end from the beginning and I don't have much trouble reconciling an evil world with a sovereign God. I simply believe that God is way above me and can do things I can't understand. 

I guess my parents trained me that way--to understand that they knew better than I did, and they had a plan even when I couldn't see the good of a thing--so it's not hard for me to transfer that trust I used to have of my parents to God. 

sally</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, thanks, Bob. I am always happy to have people praying for me. I must tell you, though, I&#8217;m pretty well convinced that God does know the end from the beginning and I don&#8217;t have much trouble reconciling an evil world with a sovereign God. I simply believe that God is way above me and can do things I can&#8217;t understand. </p>
<p>I guess my parents trained me that way&#8211;to understand that they knew better than I did, and they had a plan even when I couldn&#8217;t see the good of a thing&#8211;so it&#8217;s not hard for me to transfer that trust I used to have of my parents to God. </p>
<p>sally</p>
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		<title>By: Bob McCluskey</title>
		<link>http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/2008/05/making-the-logical-progression-to-open-theism/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob McCluskey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 00:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paraklesis.com/an_observation/?p=45#comment-40</guid>
		<description>I prayed for you because I admire your openness to hear from God.  I will tell you that I have struggled with doctrinal statements about God, foreknowledge and foreordination my entire life.  As I recently began to read and pray about the claims of open theism I feel like an intellectual elephant has been lifted off my shoulders.  Finally!  The Bible makes sense!

Bob McCluskeys last blog post..&lt;a href="http://renewing.squarespace.com/journal/2008/5/26/is-god-god-is-god-loving-what-then.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Is God, God? Is God loving? What then?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I prayed for you because I admire your openness to hear from God.  I will tell you that I have struggled with doctrinal statements about God, foreknowledge and foreordination my entire life.  As I recently began to read and pray about the claims of open theism I feel like an intellectual elephant has been lifted off my shoulders.  Finally!  The Bible makes sense!</p>
<p>Bob McCluskeys last blog post..<a href="http://renewing.squarespace.com/journal/2008/5/26/is-god-god-is-god-loving-what-then.html" rel="nofollow">Is God, God? Is God loving? What then?</a></p>
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